The Second Precept (Not taking what is not given)

[Rachel Green]

There are many subtle layers to this precept - as I understand it, it is not just to refrain from stealing but is more than that, it is to refrain from taking what is not given.

What are the practical ways this presents in your life and how do you manage to deal with them? By sharing our strategies we can help each other to understand the refinements involved and how to meet them.

As part of following this precept I try to ensure I do not take from the government what is rightfully or honestly theirs when it comes to paying taxes, for instance. However, this plays out in many subtle ways in my life and I am forever finding myself having to find new ways to deal with situations and stand up for my values graciously. What great training and mindfulness practice it is, I am forever grateful for the training the precepts provide.

For example, we recently had a tradesman around. We had already paid the basic rate for his work but during the job there were some extras to pay for. With one example, he said, "That will be $25 if you pay cash" but $27.50 if I have to give you an invoice.

"I'd like an invoice thank you" I said, "I like to pay my GST". The response I got could basically be summed up as "You're mad!" It was also made clear to me that it was a bother to prepare an invoice.

It would have been very easy to have quit at this stage and just to have made it easy for everyone. I had some guilt arise about burdening him with more work. I also had some thoughts arise tempting me to save my money and just pay cash, it was easy to say, "oh it's just such a small amount who cares, the Government won't miss it, the Govt. won't know" ... but I knew.

I knew if I paid cash although it would save me money, and save him work, we were basically stealing money from the government. So I just said, "I'd like to pay the GST please".

This scenario is played out regularly with several trades people, and at much higher amounts. It shows me how easy it is not to follow this precept.

I think the theory on the precepts is one thing, but living them in a world isn't so easy. What examples do you have for this precept and how have you dealt with them?

[Eamonn McGrath]

Hi Ruth,

Does your husband come onto this forum? I think he should buy you that ring. If he doesnt come on here can you let him know that I said this?

Thanks
Eamonn

[Ruth Morrison]

Dear Meher,
I think, when some-body (you, I or retailers) owns something and wants to sell it, he really has a "right", to ask for as much as he/she wants for it, because it is his property.
If somebody is ready to buy it for that price is another thing. If I see a diamond ring in a shop and find, it is very overprized, that still doesn't give me the right to steal or rob it. I just do without THAT ring... and have a look somewhere else. Or.. like in my case: do without .
I think, often people forget, that even what you see in the shops for selling is somebodys (or some companies) property!
It still is THEIRS, until they give it to you because you give something to them in return.
There is no public "right" on it.
No matter, how "fair" or "unfair" one who wants that produce finds the prize.
By the way: what do you mean with "sampling some produce"?
With metta
Ruth

[Eamonn McGrath]

Hi Meher,

Whilst we are both here, can I take this a bit further and maybe try and get to the root of your concern, as this sort of reflection can be good fo us all. Can I ask why you think the retailer is dishonest?

Being a devils advocate here, it appears to me that you may be getting the feeling that you are being taken for a ride by the retailer, and pride or ego is getting hurt by this? Thus you want to defend yourself and strike back? This is natural human behaviour, if mindfulness doesnt make us aware of it?

What you are describing is the path and our journey that we have chosen. My way to deal with this, is just let it go. It is not in our control and it is not personnel. It is the way it is...no more...no less.

I wish I had a generic disclaimer I could attach here, as this is only my view but it is working for me.

Ps: Were the grapes any good?

With Anjali
Eamonn

[Eamonn McGrath]

Hi Meher,

I think honesty firstly has to be observed here. Sampling is'nt sampling, unless it is offered by the retailer as free sampling. If this isnt the case, then it simply is stealing. Retailers can choose their price settings in most cases as they wish, as most of us live in a free enterprise society. Most retailers arent charities and are only in the business of making profits, rather than servicing the community. As consumers our choice is what to buy and from where. In effect by not shopiing there, the customer can effect the price, as the retailer will need to review its strategy in order to get the customers back. This is the way it all works as I am sure you already know.

The fact that you mention that you feel guilty afterwards means you know that it is wrong to 'sample?'. This is why stealing should be refrained from. It is wrong, we know it is wrong and therefore whilst having a negative effect against the party who has been stolen from, it also has a negative effect against the thief (your self). That guilt that is being carried does not aid meditation and will only impede the path to enlightenment. Wholesome actions lead to the purification of the heart which leads to better meditation. Ajahn Brahmali has explained this very well.

We must try and get over our incesive views, opinions and wrong perceptions.

Good luck and good on you for raising the question and concern.

With Metta
Eamonn

[Richard Nagyfi]

Dear Richard,

If it's bugging you, that says it all. Now you have to weigh the inconvenience of finding more agreeable work with that niggle inside that is a constant alarm bell.

Upekka, anagarika eddie

Hi Richard, it doesn't sound wrong to me ...

if we scale it down to the equivalent of a local shop owner finding out what the likes and dislikes of his customers are - if they are married, got kids, etc.. then isn't it the same thing? - in fact it might be suggested that helping retailers to know their customers is a good thing for both customers and retailers alike and changes the 'impersonal' criticism of large corporations for the better ...

... yes, it gives them a competitive advantage, but that's the nature of doing business (any business!) - the local shop owner who gets to know his clients well, also has a competitive advantage ...

... as far as getting the information from people unwillingly, I think that the world is now catching up with the idea that "if you don't pay for it (facebook, google, etc..) then you are not the customer, you are the product" ... it's just the way the internet works ...

... personally, I love how relevant the advertising has got during my web experience lately ...

Stuart
xxx

Thank you very much for your answers, I do agree with both of you 100%
I will try to find the balance to minimize the alarm in my head

[Stuart Corner]

Hi Richard, it doesn't sound wrong to me ...

if we scale it down to the equivalent of a local shop owner finding out what the likes and dislikes of his customers are - if they are married, got kids, etc.. then isn't it the same thing? - in fact it might be suggested that helping retailers to know their customers is a good thing for both customers and retailers alike and changes the 'impersonal' criticism of large corporations for the better ...

... yes, it gives them a competitive advantage, but that's the nature of doing business (any business!) - the local shop owner who gets to know his clients well, also has a competitive advantage ...

... as far as getting the information from people unwillingly, I think that the world is now catching up with the idea that "if you don't pay for it (facebook, google, etc..) then you are not the customer, you are the product" ... it's just the way the internet works ...

... personally, I love how relevant the advertising has got during my web experience lately ...

Stuart
xxx

[Ed Rock]

Dear Richard,

If it's bugging you, that says it all. Now you have to weigh the inconvenience of finding more agreeable work with that niggle inside that is a constant alarm bell.

Upekka, anagarika eddie

[Richard Nagyfi]

I have a small company specialized on data-mining. Data-mining is the marketing research of the future, where you gather large amount of data from people, basically by analysing their past actions

I always had this moral issue inside me whether it's right or wrong

-in a sense it's not stealing because you are not taking anything away from them, you are just acknowledging some personal information about them
-but in a sense you are violating precepts because most of the information is not given to you willingly (like analysing people's public status messages on facebook etc, who are not aware that their messages are public)

-in a sense it's helpful because you help companies get to know their customers and their needs better
-in a sense it's wrong because knowledge can be could used as a weapon against other competitors

What do you think? It's really hard for me to decide and has been really bugging me recently

[Rachel Green]

Daniel, What a great question - what is the difference between self-compassion and self-indulgence? I think I know, at some level, but i find it hard to articulate.

So I asked my husband and he said self indulgence is self compassion on steroids!

I am thinking we if talk of self-compassion as self-care it may be easier, self-care is getting what you need in the way of good food, sleep, exercise, time to yourself, etc to keep your body and mind healthy. Self-indulgence is doing things which may not be necessary or healthy or good for you, pigging out, eating things which may not be good for you but you fancy them, eg through greed, ... I am still not happy with this answer but hopefully others will join in and help us out!

[Rachel Green]

Thanks Sunil and Daniel,

As a Buddhist I have a goal towards improvement - I don't have guilt though - so maybe they are different Sunil.

I hear Ajahn Brahm talk about not beating ourselves up and not having guilt, and we are also taught to meditate, to improve our minds, to manage our emotions, to practise compassion, etc. All of this is "self" improvement and requires an ability to humbly accept and acknowledge our imperfections - but without self-hate and guilt. In order to follow the 8 fold path I think we walk with self-reflection as a necessary guide.

To ask what was my intention is a very important question, and not the only question. To ask was I ignorant? was I greedy? could I in some way have shown more compassion to the next person? and other similar questions, are also important questions to ask ourselves and to help guide us. Whatever the answers are we can accept and improve next time, without the need for guilt. Hope this makes my perspective clearer.

[Sunil Dandeniya]

Yes Daniel - There are the two extremes : over-indulgence vs. guilt/hatred towards oneself. Equally harmful.

As you say, at times we jump over the line and then later see it. And that energy of seeing sometimes lead us over the line in the opposite direction!!!

However it is the individual her/himself- with sufficient wisdom gained over many trials and errors- who can see this.

with metta
sunil

[Daniel Ionita]

Well said Sunil, well said. On the other hand, personally I sometimes find it hard to see the line between compassion with self and overindulgence.

Also Rachel I too appreciate your energy and support. I have read all your posts which were related to mine and I thank you for your input.

[Sunil Dandeniya]

Hi Rachel,

You are back with posts and posts. That is your energy.

My take is that I am not going to make myself guilty by being a Buddhist.To begin with, I accept myself for what I am - warts and all.
Beating myself leads me nowhere. Such a compassionate start will build on itself. In fact there is no myself, in the final analysis.

"What was my intention" plays the key role. Did I intend to steal another person's time?

However reflection is useful. That is a teacher for us. Even there "sati" seems to be the key player.

with metta
sunil

[Rachel Green]

Well me thinks we have done this precept but I know we haven't! I think it is very subtle and one which is hard to tune our radars into. If you think back across your last week what is there that you may have taken which was not given, that at the time you didn't think about, but only now on reflection do you notice/

On reflection, I think I stole some time off the next person in the queue for blood tests this morning as I stayed chatting to the pathology gentleman who had taken mine, longer than was needed.