The Second Precept (Not taking what is not given)

[Jerrod Lopes]

Rachel,

If these flowers were on a public footpath and they had fallen from a tree, I would say you hadn't stolen them. If they had been attached to a tree in someone's yard and overhanging onto the path and you had plucked some, then, regardless of legalities, it would be taking something not freely given. In this case, they were there for the taking. Someone would likely bring up the question; "what if it had been someone's wallet or purse instead of flowers?" So preempting such a question, I will say that we all know there is a difference between flowers that naturally grow on a tree and another person's personal property which will likely be sorely missed and the loss of which could likely result in serious long term suffering for the person who lost it. Whereas it is very UNlikely that someone's life would be greatly effected by a few flowers falling from their tree onto a footpath and being taken and put to good use by a passerby. They may very well experience some mudita in knowing you enjoyed these flowers.

I have plum trees and walnut trees in my front yard. People passing by help themselves and I am generally happy to let them do so, so long as they're not too greedy about it. I have also lost a wallet in the past few years, gone back for it less than 15 minutes after losing it, only to find it gone forever. The loss of that wallet and the contents therein had long lasting effects, which probably are still affecting me today.

I for one, am glad you found the flowers and got so much joy from them in an otherwise very dull room. : )

Jerrod : )

[Rachel Green]

Thanks Jerrod, they certainly did bring joy. I hadn't thought about it bringing joy to others - that's a nice reflection, thanks. http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/i...lies/smile.png

I had thought of the wallet analogy too and am pleased you have brought it up. I was thinking that there is a difference between stealing and "Not taking what has not been given".

To me the precept is "Not taking what has not been given" and I certainly wasn't given the flowers or invited to take them. next time I think I will leave them there. Of course, if I leave them there then they are also there for others to enjoy, whereas if I take them I deprive others of that joy.

The same situation arises when I am in a conference, afterwards there are often pens left behind by participants that have been given out during the day. I know they will just be thrown away at the end. I tend to leave them there as they haven't been given to me. However, then I think would it be better to take them and reduce waste?

I find this precept has a lot of refinements to it. I enjoy watching my mind around these issues.

Metta.

[Rachel Green]

On Tuesday night I was fascinated to hear one of our Ajahn's talking about this precept - he said it extended to not stealing someone's time. I had never thought of this before, what about you? One example he gave was deliberately annoying someone and wasting their time he said this could be considered stealing their time.
I am going to watch for this as I am thinking it is easy use up another person's time for our own selfish gain when we want something.

[Daniel Ionita]

I've always thought that it is not my case to go against the 2nd percept. But now I figure out that downloading pirated media is something so usual and uninforced legally in my country that i've always taken it for granted. It doesn't even feel like i'm stealing something, because no one is theoretically missing anything because of me. I've always thought about it as "no one is getting hurt because of me, no one notices, nothing is missing afterwars because i'm just getting a copy". And now i realise how hard it is for me to aknowledge that i'm doing something wrong, because i've grown up thinking it's right, everyone is doing it, the law punishes those that upload(very rarely) no those that download. And still someone uploads it, which means he/she is giving it. It's really controversial for me.

[Dennis Moelck]

Yes, that is true, Daniel. The uploader does give these things to you. But if you go a step further, was the uploader himself given these things or has he been taking them from someone without their permission? Maybe he got the copy from someone else who got it from another person, but I hope you see what I mean. In the end, one directly or indirectly hurts the owners of that material if their intention is to sell that which you have just downloaded for free. Apart from that, I personally like to view spending money on sensual pleasures as a way of saying "thank you" to the people who were involved in their creation.

I hope this helps.

Metta,
Dennis

[Daniel Ionita]

Thank you, I realise that i'm doing something wrong. But it is hard for me to accept that it is wrong because it is not only socially accepted, but the prices of media in comparison to income here are ridiculously high and almost everyone is downloading music, movies and games. I can't even imagine telling my friends that i didn't see that movie or i didn't play that game because i can't aford it and i don't want to "steal" it.

I've toned down on such behaviour now, by paying for some online games and playing more free to play games, I also choose to got o the cinema from time to time to see the movies i really appreciate(from the trailers and reviews i read) and i listen to music online. Hopefully with time I'll reduce such behaviour to a minimum.

[Rachel Green]

Maybe I can put another slant on it for you Daniel. I am someone who makes a living (or part of it) from making CDs and DVDs. I invest a lot of time and money in recording, editing and producing them. Just the studio hire fees alone are expensive never mind editing at about $100 an hr. One CD set took me 80 hrs of editing.

I then pay for them to be reproduced, and packaged. They also contain the experiences and knowledge that I have built up over many years, including the cost of funding my own studies. I also pay for the costs of marketing them and running an online shop. Musicians and developers of software are in a similar situation to mine.

When these CDs or DVDs arrive on the shelves or online I expect and need people to pay for them, so I can recoup the investment I have made of my time, expertise and money. If you or others don't pay me in return then my time, money and experience is being stolen. Also by not paying for them it could bring down a business like mine or at least stop it from investing in the production of more products which help people.

Until you've been on the other side and seen what goes into production it can be hard to understand. I hope this makes it easier to understand, as I am dismayed by illegal copying and how ignorant people are of the consequences. It is breaking the precept.

An alternative is to develop other hobbies and pastimes beyond the need for these. Have you ever thought of learning to play a musical instrument yourself? Or writing poetry? Or playing tennis? I have no idea what fits your interests sorry!

Being a 5 preceptor does mean swimming against the stream ... and not always doing what everyone else in society does. I know it can be hard, I often haven't watched TV or the movies or even read books and just say so if people start talking about it. I am happier meditating or gardening!
I hope this helps
Much metta
Rachel.

[Daniel Ionita]

Thank you. I'll take it into consideration.

Metta,
Daniel.

[Jerrod Lopes]

It may be helpful to know, that with music specifically, the artist often times has to sell tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of records to make a living. It may also be helpful in realizing that the artist is loaned the money from the record company to produce a record. Only after hundreds of thousands of records are sold are the costs recouped by the record company and the then artist is free to earn anything from the sales. This is a very simplified explanation, but more than one artist has probably gone bankrupt and lost his/her recording contract due to illegal downloading. I got out of the music business after spending time getting a formal education in production because few can afford a "real" studio or engineer anymore due to short sales, due to (mainly) illegal downloads. A friend lost his studio and home altogether. What illegal downloading is doing is driving costs up to recover what is lost to piracy. For music there's always internet radio which is free to you, but paid for by the provider via license. This way you still get to choose exactly the music you want to hear, but it's all done legitimately and legally. Just thought that may lend some perspective.

Metta,

Jerrod

[Jo Tummers]

I find myself having more and more problems with the so called little white lies. Before, it was an easy thing to do, but the firmer Buddhism is incorporated into my life, the worse it feels to do that. I am much more honest now, about even the littlest things.

[Steve McCulloch]

There always will be interpretations to any of the 5 precepts, we can justify breaking or keeping them based on nuance.
Perhaps the flower taken from the footpath was not given or maybe the tree dropped it for you to take and enjoy.
What if you lose you copy of a CD, or it gets broken or scratched, and you download a copy (or borrow someone elses) to burn as a replacement?
Intention is what matters.

One thing I realized a few years ago is that reading magazine articles and sections of books (without intending an eventual purchase) at the bookstore is taking what is not given - for the same reason that downloading copyrighted media (without paying) is stealing.

Taking is easy; not taking it not, which is why we practice.

[Jerrod Lopes]

The Five Precepts CAN and often are interpreted to find loopholes and such. This is why the Noble Eightfold Path is important in conjunction with keeping the precepts. Yet I often do not see or hear nearly as much discussion on the Noble Eightfold Path. Perhaps because it does somewhat lock a person into a Right View of the Precepts?

It is legal to copy your commercially produced CDs for yourself as backups. Distribution without license is what is illegal. Receiving is what is illegal. In truth, in many states of the US for instance, downloading is a felony violation of state law and can be punished severely. I've seen it happen. Reading books in a bookstore is not stealing as, at least in most bookstores they are happy to let you read as much as you like. Though in a bookstore that had signs up asking patrons not to read the books would keep a serious and/or mindful preceptor from doing so. But photocopying or scanning these things out of books from the bookstore or library would definitely fall into the taking what is not freely given category. This happens all too often unfortunately.

Jerrod

[Rachel Green]

"One thing I realized a few years ago is that reading magazine articles and sections of books (without intending an eventual purchase) at the bookstore is taking what is not given..."
Nice comments Steve - I hadn't thought about that before thanks so much for bringing it to our attention - I really like these precepts - they help us refine more and more what we do and don't do. They are a thorough training in mindfulness and ethical living.

"Taking is easy; not taking it not, which is why we practice." yes! oh so true Steve thanks.

Good point about the eight fold path Jerrod ... maybe we do discuss it but in sections rather than as a whole - maybe you could start a forum on it, if there isn't one already.

metta Rach.

[Jo Tummers]

@Rachel Thanks for your post about the cost that are involved in making a CD/DVD. I think that people that are not 'in the business' often don't know or realize what is involved in developing such products. To be honest it is an eye-opener to me although I can honestly say that I don't copy or download from illegal sites. To me, that really feels like stealing.
And let's be honest, with the current prices of CD's and DVD's I think most people are able to afford some. I live on a tiny income but I still can afford to buy some music now and then.

[Jerrod Lopes]

For those who love music and don't want to illegally download:
http://grooveshark.com/

here you can listen to any music you want, all free to you. The website pays a license fee so that artists, record companies, managers, producers...everyone gets paid, and you get to listen to the music you want, as much as you want. It's like being the program director of your very own radio station. You needn't even sign up as a member to listen.

Metta,

Jerrod