The Fifth Precept (Intoxicants)

[Rachel Green]

Under "Happy new year" there are some really helpful comments about how to stop drinking alcohol. This precept is often one of the hardest for Westerners to follow, I have even heard Ajahn Brahm jokingly refer to "4 precept Buddhists" because many keep drinking.

As it is such an important topic I thought it could be useful to have a forum totally devoted to this so that others who are struggling with this could easily find the information.

I also think it would be good to have a forum on each of the precepts separately, as when people first start trying to keep them or become interested in them there are often lots of questions about HOW to keep them in daily life. (There are for those of us who have been trying to keep them for a long time too.) We did start a 5 precept support group once at Armadale and it was really useful but it will reach more people through the forums

I am happy to start a discussion on each one as a separate thread if it is of interest - or welcome someone else doing this.

[Michael Rodgers]

Interestingly there are very few places in the suttas where the fifth precept is mentioned. Usually only the first 4 are listed. There may be some textual justification for being a "four precept buddhist".

There is also a distinction between drinking alcohol and being drunk. It Is only the fifth precept that is qualified by the phrase "that lead to heedlessness". This may be interpreted as saying dont take anything that might impair your judgment, or it could mean dont drink to drunkeness.

I sound like i am defending taking alcohol, which is not my intent. Howerver this precept does lack the clarity of the others.

[Heidi Hodder]

Thanks for starting this Rachel.

For a couple of years I've restricted myself to one or two drinks but I noticed recently since I've been meditating every day that even one drink disturbs or 'blurs' the happiness & clarity of mind produced by meditation.

So I am planning on keeping this precept strictly from now on & perhaps this forum will help me!

I do, however, agree with what I heard Ajahn Brahm say once about how most people should be more concerned about what comes out of their mouths than what goes into them. When I was younger & my drinking led to heedlessness it was indeed very harmful but since restricting myself to one or two drinks speech such as idle chatter (including online!), gossip, exaggeration were much more of a problem.

[Bo Schafers]

I also think it would be good to have a forum on each of the precepts separately(There are for those of us who have been trying to keep them for a long time too.) I am happy to start a discussion on each one as a separate thread if it is of interest - or welcome someone else doing this.

A new thread on each precept would be excellent Rachel . As they develop I'll *sticky* them at the top or -if warranted- put them into a new 'Daily Practice' (or similar) forum categorie(s).

[Guy Craft]

Hi Heidi,

For a couple of years I've restricted myself to one or two drinks but I noticed recently since I've been meditating every day that even one drink disturbs or 'blurs' the happiness & clarity of mind produced by meditation.

I have been noticing more and more that clarity of mind is hard enough to maintain with all the stresses of modern life; there is no need to add to the stress and confusion with intoxicants. People say that they drink to unwind but, in my experience, what they are really doing is more like putting a blindfold over their eyes.

So I am planning on keeping this precept strictly from now on & perhaps this forum will help me!

I wish you all the best in keeping your aspiration!

When I was younger & my drinking led to heedlessness it was indeed very harmful but since restricting myself to one or two drinks speech such as idle chatter (including online!), gossip, exaggeration were much more of a problem.

Are you saying that your speech was less restrained when you drank less?

Metta,

Guy

[Ben Johnson]

Why observe the 5th precept?

I held the 5th precept very loosely for a long time, and only came to strict observance after I had gained enough confidence in the dharma to take it on as a working hypothesis – a sort of experiment. I have since come to believe that it is of vale for three reasons (Oh, how we Buddhists love numbered lists)...

1. Avoiding intoxicants is like practice for other situations where it may be tempting to retreat to a state of delusion rather than confront reality with a clear head. Just as a sip of alcohol can help lessen the sting of undesirable circumstances, so too can a day-dream or fantasy provide some comfort in my daily life, but these things are antithetical to the path. The first noble truth is about getting real and confronting the fact that our life circumstances are often undesirable, and taking refuge in pleasurable delusions (chemically induced or otherwise) robs us of the opportunity to fully realize the noble truths.

2. When I am tempted to drink, I remind myself, although I may not think that I have a problem with drinking, of the Buddha's teaching of mutual interdependence - that ultimately there is no demarcation between what appears to be an individual creature and its environment. Drinking is social, and having a drink is a silent invitation for others to join. While I may not have a problem (this is debatable), others in the room might, and the fact of my drinking effects my environment and signals to others (my children for example) that it is drinking is okay.

3. I like Thich Nhat Hanh’s explanation of the 5th precept which equates consumption of intoxicants to the ingesting certain TV programs, books, foods, films, conversations, etc. Basically, you are what you eat, and alcohol is like bottled delusion. “I will work to transform violence, fear, anger and confusion in myself and in society by practicing a diet for myself and for society. I understand that a proper diet is crucial for self-transformation and for the transformation of society.” Observance of the 5th precept helps me be mindful of other indulgences (gossip, cheesecake, soda, etc.) which can cause me to get lost in sensual pleasure.

I don’t go around telling people that they shouldn’t drink. And when friends from college came to visit with a bottle of wine, I do not turn them away. But having taken on the fifth precept, my only regret is that I didn’t do so earlier. Only when you step away from it can you see how addicted you truly are, even if that addiction is more subtle than full-blown alcoholism.

[Bo Schafers]

this precept does lack the clarity of the others.

I find that ALL the precepts are rather open to interpretation if one tries.

Anyhow here's the standard response I give when encouraged/pressured to drink or consume drugs:

"In the past I've drunk more than 3 of you will consume in your entire lifetime and then I decided to give it away simply because I can..."

Maybe not exactly the meekest response, however I find it will cut through the superior attitudes and not land me in a situation where I have to justify myself endlessly.

[Jerrod Lopes]

I am all for discussions relating to each of the 5 precepts individually and in depth. Would be great if we could get one of the monks or a senior lay member to help guide the discussions. Thanks for bringing this up Rachel.

Metta,
Jerrod

[Martin Cross]

I find that giving away drinking all the time was easy.However I find the hardest thing is I associate drinking with certain things i.e a dinner out,a nice lunch out on a hot day etc.The times I have a drink at these events I notice how much it effects me and how its not all that great.I try to remember this when I am tempted.
Also I dont say this is forever,but this my choice at the moment.This seems to take the stress away for me.
The more I get into meditation the more I find how important keeping the precepts is.

[Heidi Hodder]

Are you saying that your speech was less restrained when you drank less?

Not at all, actually even only a couple of drinks had a detrimental effect on my speech, good point. I just meant that I think Ajahn Brahm made a good point, he said something like, the man going to have a pint at the pub is not doing all that much harm, most people need to worry more about what comes out of their mouths than what goes into them.

All I meant was that getting drunk was a major obstacle on the path for me, as was unrestrained speech, having one or two drinks was an obstacle but not as big an obstacle as my past addiction to gossip. I would liken the one or two drinks in seriousness to my indulgence in/escape from emotional discomfort via other sensual pleasures such as consumption of junk food or my compulsive use of facebook. Actually those things do seem very serious to me right now because I have finally begun to practice the path seriously (Sadhu!!!) but in the past they did not seem as serious because I had other more serious vices to overcome! (e.g. the gossip addiction).

Thanks Ben for your comments, beautifully put.

[Sylvester Lam]

I wonder just how deleterious smoking would be in the scheme of the 5th Precept? Now, that's my major vice.

But strangely enough, after stepping thru the gates of Jhana Grove, the urge disappeared completely for the whole period of the retreat and I did not even need nicotine gum.

Are mindfulness and intoxicants therefore linked in a sort of inverse spiral that affects one another?

[Guy Craft]

All I meant was that getting drunk was a major obstacle on the path for me, as was unrestrained speech, having one or two drinks was an obstacle but not as big an obstacle as my past addiction to gossip. I would liken the one or two drinks in seriousness to my indulgence in/escape from emotional discomfort via other sensual pleasures such as consumption of junk food or my compulsive use of facebook. Actually those things do seem very serious to me right now because I have finally begun to practice the path seriously (Sadhu!!!) but in the past they did not seem as serious because I had other more serious vices to overcome! (e.g. the gossip addiction).

Ah, I see, good point.

[Rachel Green]

Thanks for all these comments. I'll give a number of responses because one will become far too long!

I really like the response you gave people Bo when being encouraged to drink by others: "In the past I've drunk more than 3 of you will consume in your entire lifetime and then I decided to give it away simply because I can..." Brilliant.

One of the reasons many of us find it hard not to keep the precepts is because we don't know what to say when under pressure from others. Once I found easy ways to say "no thank you" and to avoid getting into arguments or embarrassment over my not drinking alcohol it was much easier.

The clincher for me in being able to give up alcohol was when my husband, who is an analytical chemist, sat me down and drew the molecular formula to show me how alcohol is turned straight into fat in the body. Why drink a glass of liquid butter? I haven't drunk since! (That was about 12 years ago I think)

It can be difficult to turn down alcohol if you are not sure of the best ways to say "No thank you" when people press you to drink, and they try to convince you that "just one glass will do you no harm". I have written an article called "Gain self-confidence: How to say "No" to alcohol" which is on one of my own sites in case it helps: http://www.confident-woman.com.au/as...o-alcohol.html
(Please ignore the fact that the site is for women, it is relevant to men and women ...) (I ha e put a long link rather than a shortened url so you can see it is a genuine link)

I've learnt to simply say, "No thanks I don't drink alcohol" and to keep repeating this until the other person gets it.

I also take along to any party or social my own non alcoholic drinks to make it easy for the hosts.

[Rachel Green]

In response to the comments about keeping this precept ... I have a comment to make about the precepts generally, which is that they are there as a form of discipline. It is a training - there is much in Buddhism beyond meditation but which affects our meditation practice. The precepts taken as a whole and without excuses, to me have opened up a life of freedom. When I follow them it is much easier for my mind to be clear, when I follow them some of the difficult decisions in life are eased, and when I use these as a discipline of training then other aspects of my life and mind become easier to manage. The precepts are there to further advance the training we can give our minds.

Rather than finding reasons to weaken them or not follow them, you may benefit from examining your mind and the desire that is there when you are tempted to "just have one drink" or to only follow 4 and not 5. This may be the very precept that is waiting to give you the lessons in managing your mind that you most need.

Whatever Ajahn Brahm has said in an isolated talk his overall view is clear that we are best to follow all five precepts and they are all valid. If we think one or two drinks won't hurt us, or what comes out of our mouths is more important, then I think we may miss the deeper value of the precepts and the opportunity they give us to train our minds. They give us a wonderful opportunity to see into our minds.

There is a chapter in Ajahn Chah's book "Everything arises, everything falls away" that you might enjoy. The chapter is called "Seeing things through". In this chapter he talks about how he was tormented by lust as a young monk ... but how "he didn't succumb" and "he would see things through, with the attitude that there was no other place and no other time to do it".

When we follow the precepts we learn how to see things through rather than to ditch them when it becomes easier to say yes.

This may sound strange but I find this precept one of the easiest to keep partly because it can come down to a black and white decision yes or no, I find the other ones far more complicated, such as to refrain from killing, I will open up discussions on other precepts.

Much metta to all of you.

[Rachel Green]

Hi Jerrod, You may find some of the contributors are "senior lay people", just because it says junior member next to all our names that is no reflection on our experience level as Buddhists, I think it is just about how many posts we have put on? I don't know maybe Bo could help us here. Hope this reassures you. What matters is that we all put our experiences together and share how we have managed/are managing to keep the precepts, that is certainly why I put the post here to explore the how rather than the why, or to argue the merits or otherwise of them. We can all contribute equally to this discussion whether we only started teh precept today or have been "following" them for 10 years. Metta Rachel.