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The Noble Eightfold Path

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  • #16
    Who or what makes things complex? I would answer by saying ego, or false view of self identity.

    I, for one, am aware of your education from previous discussions. You certainly know more about this aspect of physics than I. You asked how I knew of the existence of such things as molecules and atoms. I answered. I purposefully refrained from getting to quarks and other sub-atomic particles because for purposes of our discussion here, they are irrelevant and getting into the complex that I mentioned earlier.

    When teaching tools assume a life of their own? I'm not sure we're commenting on, or participating in, the same discussion.

    Of course some may wonder 'who is this person, who is that one'... I'm again unclear as to what you're getting at. It is likely that you are much more learned than I am and I could just be confused. If you would like to know more about me there is my profile and typing my name into Google will give you maybe 2 1/2 to 3 pages of stuff. Of course you are welcome to email with specific questions. Is it bad that you wonder who I am? To reply; what are your intentions in wanting to know? Is it right view to wonder about somebody? I'm not sure. I guess that again is determined by what information one seeks to learn and for what purposes.

    With respect and metta,

    Jerrod

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    • #17
      What is the importance of kamma and rebirth as it relates to attaining Right View? Reasoning that the truth of these teachings would be known to one when one achieved Right View, is there importance to knowing these things as a condition to attain Right View?

      Jerrod

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      • #18
        hmm

        with metta
        sunil

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        • #19
          Hi Jerrod,

          Originally posted by Jerrod Lopes View Post
          What is the importance of kamma and rebirth as it relates to attaining Right View? Reasoning that the truth of these teachings would be known to one when one achieved Right View, is there importance to knowing these things as a condition to attain Right View?

          Jerrod
          I believe that the Kalama Sutta gives us a pretty good idea of how one who lacks direct knowledge of rebirth and/or kamma, should view rebirth:

          "Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now:

          "'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.

          "'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.

          "'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.

          "'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.

          "One who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires these four assurances in the here-&-now.
          "Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas" (AN 3.65), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 30 January 2011, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....065.than.html

          The way I understand it, not everyone who has Right View has knowledge of rebirth and/or kamma - some do, some don't - but all of them believe in it to some extent. It is safe to assume, even if you don't know for sure, that rebirth and kamma are true because the belief itself leads to wholesome outcomes in this lifetime (let alone any future lifetimes).

          How does all this fit in with the Right View of the Four Noble Truths?

          In my opinion, if we don't believe in rebirth, then the idea of getting off the wheel of Samsara loses it's meaning. Some people interpret the wheel of Samsara as referring, metaphorically, to the ups and downs of this life only - I believe that this is a Wrong View. If this life is all there is then there are still, undoubtedly, benefits to be had from keeping precepts and practicing meditation - but wouldn't it mean that at the end of this life we effectively reach Pari-Nibbana no matter what, even if we don't practice the Noble Eightfold Path?

          The Buddha talks about crying more tears than the four great oceans and having one's head cut off over and over again - surely, even if these are intended as metaphors, many people's lives (this time around) are not that bad. If there is only one lifetime, what is the point in arousing a sense of urgency? Suffering ceases at death, right?

          Metta,

          Guy
          Last edited by Guy Craft; 19th-August-2011, 08:58 AM.

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          • #20
            Bhikku Bodhi's book is really good. Just purchased a copy to give to a friend.... to help her in treading the Noble 8fold path.

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            • #21
              Glad to hear it Indira. I'm sure your friend will benefit greatly. Good to see you here friend.: )

              Jerrod

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Michael Rodgers View Post
                Of course there are other definitions in the suttas eg.

                "There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves."
                Hi all,

                'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed' - this sounds a lot like brahminic sacrifice and a little incongruous for Buddhist thought? - I'm not sure how to read this stanza - what are others thoughts?

                'There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world.' - I guess this is kamma and rebirth … it is interesting to note that right/wrong view is also included in the kammapatha (paths of intention) – so it is wholesome kamma to take on right view in just the same way as it is wholesome kamma to refrain from killing, lying, stealing, etc.. it seems that just holding the correct view is part of Buddhist morality.

                'There is mother & father' – This seems a bit odd – you would have thought that this is obvious – is there a non-literal interpretation of this that I am missing?

                'There are beings who are reborn spontaneously' - the 'spontaneously' bit sounds like it may be saying that there is no cause and effect operating? … any thoughts? …

                'there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.
                ' - I certainly hope so

                Stuart
                xxx

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                • #23
                  There is a thread Right View where Ajahn Brahmali wrote:

                  The first part about giving is simply an affirmation that there is value, certainly kammic value but also "awakening" value, in the act of generosity. Remember that there were ascetics at the time of the Buddha, apparently famous ones, who denied the efficacy of giving.

                  The reference to mother and father seems to be another reference to kamma. The emphasis on parents may be due to the particularly heavy kammic weight that actions towards one's parents tend to have. For example, killing one's parents is akin to killing an arahant in terms of kammic weight. Thus any moral practice should include particular attention to how one treats one's parents.

                  The reference to spontaneously reborn beings is perhaps included to show that the field of kammic results is not limited to the human realm. This is important since it shows that kamma may ripen in very unpleasant ways. Potential rebirth in a lower realm is a very good motivator for getting off the wheel of rebirth. The idea of rebirth in other realms is important in Buddhism, and it is emphasized quite a bit in the suttas.
                  I find this very helpful.

                  With metta.

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                  • #24
                    Hi Stuart,

                    Originally posted by Stuart Corner View Post
                    'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed' - this sounds a lot like brahminic sacrifice and a little incongruous for Buddhist thought? - I'm not sure how to read this stanza - what are others thoughts?
                    Just a guess: Perhaps the "sacrifice" doesn't mean killing or burnt offerings or anything like that, instead, perhaps it means giving up our own self-interest for the benefit of others. Therefore (if this interpretation is accurate) the Buddha is saying that we need to acknowledge that other people (such as our parents, teachers, etc.) have to give up many things in order to help us to get to where we are. Though, not knowing the original Pali word (nor it's intended meaning) that is used in this verse, I have no idea how accurate this guess is. It makes sense to me, given the context of the sentence. Perhaps Ajahn Brahmali can shed some light on this after the Rains Retreat.

                    Originally posted by Stuart Corner View Post
                    'There are beings who are reborn spontaneously' - the 'spontaneously' bit sounds like it may be saying that there is no cause and effect operating? … any thoughts?
                    I don't believe that spontaneous rebirth means without cause, I believe it is referring to any realm other that the human or animal realm. In the human and animal realms beings come from the womb or an egg, whereas spontaneously reborn beings (all other realms) do not have to go through this process. So the verse here is saying that Right View includes the view that other realms (aside from that which we can see with our human eyes) exist. At least, this is my interpretation.

                    Metta,

                    Guy
                    Last edited by Guy Craft; 24th-August-2011, 08:02 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Thanks Rudite, thanks Guy ...

                      ... Rudite, I cant seem to find that thread is there any chance you (or someone) could do a link for me?

                      Stuart
                      xxx

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                      • #26
                        Continuing with the Noble Eightfold Path

                        WOuld anyone care to continue where we've left off. I'm a bit busy with school and work for the time being and don't feel I will give this discussion the energy it needs, but would love to see it continue in a timely manner. Any takers?

                        Metta,

                        Jerrod : )

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Stuart Corner View Post

                          ... Rudite, I cant seem to find that thread is there any chance you (or someone) could do a link for me?

                          Stuart
                          xxx
                          Hi Stuart,
                          Sorry, I seem to have missed your question. Here is the link to that thread.

                          With metta.

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                          • #28
                            Thanks Rudite

                            Stuart
                            xxx

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                            • #29
                              Here Ajahn Brahm reads the Sammaditthi Sutta ( Right View MN 9 ).
                              Wonderful, very inspiring!
                              My deepest gratitude to Ajahn Brahm!

                              With metta.

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                              • #30
                                For me right view is simply to know and accept the buddha's teachings as opposed to the teachings of the brahmins for instance.

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