Buddhism and Guns

[Amy Lynn]

Hi all,

I'm a fairly recent, new adherent to Buddhism, and I'm in America. Unfortunately as of late, there's been a lot of gun violence here. I'm sure you all have seen and/or heard of it on the news, but in the state I am in (Florida) on Sunday, there was the biggest mass shooting in US history at a gay club (about 2 hour's drive from me.) However, it's been happening fairly frequently everywhere in the country. I don't know how I feel other than sadness, and that it might be time for better gun regulations like other countries (Australia, Japan, Europe, etc.) My family is very pro-gun, own several, and many of my friends (real and on Facebook) are commenting very negatively about this whole situation; how the person who did it is not even a human being, how if more people had guns and this wouldn't happen, and still believe guns should be legal & pretty much 100% available to everyone. I disagree with all of these things, very much so, but would never say so outright unless asked, or treat them any differently because of it.

What is the Middle Way regarding this? Is there even one? What is your opinion and what country are you from? I know there is the First Precept of non-harm of course, but what about people owning small guns for self-defense? (For the record, I do not own one.) Then there's attachment to views, good or bad. So confusing...

I feel honestly that this topic is dividing us as a nation. Instead of uniting us in the face of a tragedy, we're disagreeing and turning on each-other, and that makes me very sad

Much Metta,
Amy Lynn

[Jerrod Lopes]

I disagree with much of the above post.

Firstly, we needn't change the world, only the way we relate to it. Guns are not the problem. People without a moral compass or background are the problem, especially in the US where systematic degradation of spiritual organizations has run rampant over the past few decades.

Secondly, the comparison between the US and European countries is always apples and oranges. There are vastly more people in the US than any European nation. Many of the guns in the US are not of US origin and are funneled in by drug cartels from other countries.

Thirdly, guns do have purpose other than harm. They are by far used mostly for recreational target shooting at stationary paper targets as competitive sport or non-competitive recreation.

Lastly, Congress cannot legally disarm the population, hence their seeming unwillingness to take guns away.

We must have right view, yes. This includes the view that this is samsara, not utopia.

[Anagarika Michael]

Dear Amy:

Guns have only one purpose; to cause harm. The harm may be defensible such as a person using a gun to feed themelves, protect their home from invasion, but harm still occurs. The Buddha encouraged us to have not "no views, " but to have Right View, and part of right view, IMO, is nonharming.

The US gun culture has caused there to be so much of a proliferation of guns that many people that otherwise feel no attraction t guns feel as though they need to have a gun. More guns, however, has just lead to more violence. More guns now means that people in conflict take up a gun, instead of resorting to less harmful means of dispute resolution. Countries that have strict controls on guns owned by the public have demonstrably lower levels of violence in these countries. The connection between guns and violence and death is clear and convincing.

The Buddha came from a warrior clan in north India; surely he was familirr with weapons, such as the bow and arrow. Yet, the Buddha's teaching implores us to use skillful means in order to defuse conflict.

The problem in the United States is that there are now so many guns in the country, and so many guns available to anyone, even teenagers in American cities, that a gun ban simply is unachievable, such as was done in Australia. It is a problem that in my view is likely beyond repair. So many people will die, because of so many guns available. Yet, in our practice, we must encourage peacemaking, and encourage ourselves and others to resort to conflict resolution vs. the use of violence when conflict arises. Having guns has just made it so easy for people that are angry or deluded to kill another person. Why use compassionate words, or mindfulness, when a gun is so readily available? A campaign over 10-20 years might be a successful way to rid the country of guns, and control their ownership, but there is about zero interest in the present Congress, and the country, to undertake such an effort to rid the country of a scourge that has lead to so many deaths.

[Mara Pacers]

Greetings Franz. I really don't think I can add to the discussion any further. I described the link to Ajahn Brahms talk, which Mahisha has posted in his response, because my comments about "effluent" we're not informed by a study of scripture. Hence I felt that it was important to let people decide for themselves by going to an expert source.

With Metta

[Franz Li]

Meaning of Asava - translated as outflow, influx, effluent, taint, canker...etc

Dear Mara, so what is the meaning of "effluent" as it was "originally intended" that you found out from Ajahn Brahm's talk (which is different from your earlier remarks?)

I had forgotten that I wrote previously (about a Harvard psychology experiment) that: "...Ajahn Brahm talked about the Pali word "asava" as "outflow" - the tendency of consciousness to seek out sensory stimulation and explore the world outside. Interestingly, other translators like Bhikkhu Bodhi used the word "influx". I prefer "outflow"...."

I have since a slight change of understanding.

Bhante Dhammadipa (a Czech Bhikkhu) brought up an interesting idea of "asava" at a Hong Kong University lecture in March. He mentioned an ancient commentary saying that "outflow" and "inflow/influx" always go hand in hand. When I thought about it, it makes perfect sense: ... Whenever our mind seeks out external stimulus through the 5-sense portals because it "craves for delights due to not-understanding (i.e. ignorance)" <read MN-01 Mulapariyaya Sutta or listen to Ajahn Brahm's MN-01 talk>, it is an "outflow". Inevitably the mind's grasping also drags in some "influx", and this "inflow" has karmic effect on our consciousness because of our "clinging". All these fluxes ended for the arahants since there is no more cravings & clinging.

Thus I think both Ajahn Brahm's take on "asava" and Bhikkhu Bodhi's choice of "influx" are OK. It's a shift of perspective. However, I still prefer Ajahn Brahm's explanation as more useful to guide one's meditation. If we understand our mind will tend to rush out, then "mindfulness" is to be vigilant and stand on guard: as soon as the mind is on the prowl again, "do not forget" to bring it back to the center of stillness, the mind-object of samatha.

Not sure if this discussion about "asava" is pertinent to a thread about "guns".

Suffice to say every thought, speech and action driven by desire, aversion (fear/anger/hatred) or delusion has karmic consequence. Our volitional choice of owning a gun or not has karmic consequence. That's indisputable.

Based on Conditioned Origination, "this therefore that". One thing will lead to another. If there is no gun, there is no bullet to come out of it. A gun can be stolen, misplaced, found by curious kids, misfire, etc. If a gun is in the house, there are possible use and misuse of the object, causing injury or death, intentionally or not.

I don't ever think about owning a gun. Never had my hands on a gun in my life. That's my karma. I hope to keep it that way. However, for people living in an extreme high gun-crime region, who are we to judge if their survival do not depend on owning a gun? But that's their karma. Australia wisely passed legislation to remove most guns in their country. Good for Australians. Canada shares a long and porous border with USA, so does not have the benefit of the Pacific Ocean that Australians enjoy. Still, most Canadians do not consider guns a desirable object.

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

Dear Mara, thank you for that - I believe I found it!
http://media.bswa.org/meditation/Bra...2011_03_05.mp3

With Metta and gratitude,
Mahisha

[Mara Pacers]

Dear Mahisha, I have just found this guided meditation by Ajahn Brahm, where he talks about the outflowings of the mind. The meaning is very different from what I was imagining the 'effluent' might be. It can be found in the 1hour downloads and is a guided meditation by Ajahn Brahm.
Apologies for the wrong steering. I do sometimes get carried away by my love of language, in this case the precise meaning, as originally intended, is too important.

With Metta

Mara

[James Taeza]

This world, much as we would like it to be, is not perfect and never will be. There is no utopia and never will be. This is samsara. To quote the band Green Day's lyric "everything isn't meant to be okay". This is an enormous part of the path the Buddha laid out. Nibbana is not making the world perfect, but making yourself without kamma, blameless. Attachment to views and identities such as; American, pacifist, LGBT, straight, violent, smart, stupid....these are all samsara. Letting go of identities is dhamma. I don't think we should get caught up in what our country should or shouldn't do. We have enough ahead of us to know what we individuals should or shouldn't do. How can we know what others should do if we don't know what to do for ourselves? To make merit, doing good in deeds and thoughts is far more powerful than any restrictive laws we could pass that only further a delusion of security and safety. Instead of teying to get rid of all the guns and the violence, rid yourself of the fear of them and the attachments to the root views and attachments that cause the fear. Just my thoughts.

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

in mettā,
russ

[Amy Lynn]

Friends in Dhamma,

Thank you all so very much for responding to my post! It's been about a week, and I am just so sorry I haven't had the chance to address each and every one of your well-thought out, wonderful responses. However, I have read them, and the different perspectives have given me a lot to think about. I love this forum! It has cooled down here quite a bit and healing has begun, so I believe that is definitely a positive. I have offered my support to the LGBT community in attending events/giving donations, and I have to say, the outpouring of support has just been amazing. More people (diverse, different religions) coming together than before, now that the shock has worn off. I believe we can only move forward from here regardless of personal opinions, and this just showed me that feelings and emotions in the moment are (more often than not) temporary.

Metta
Amy Lynn

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

wow, now, that's beautiful Mara!
Thank you

I love this sutta a lot... now, have a different color / dimension - to contemplate, and use as a source of inspiration

With Metta,

Mahisha

[Mara Pacers]

I like the thought of outflow as well. And in the case of effluents it is outflow of unwholesome substances that could be understood as
"Arahants, their effluents ended:" ie Arahants no longer exuding or leaking unwholesome stuff (thoughts actions feelings) because these things are no longer present or have been dissolved or dispersed from their 'being'.
The momentum here is the outflow or expulsion of effluent by the Arahants rather active inflow from relative world stimulants.

What an incredible state to contemplate! I'm still leaking a considerable amount of effluent into my surroundings it is a lovely image or aim to continuously reduce ones effluent
Many thanks

With Metta

Mara

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

you are welcome Mara...
The pali version is
https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn7.6

I think (I could be wrong), effluents here is translation of the word "āsavā",
and Franz Li on another thread wrote:
Ajahn Brahm talked about the Pali word "asava" as "outflow" - the tendency of consciousness to seek out sensory stimulation and explore the world outside.
Interestingly, other translators like Bhikkhu Bodhi used the word "influx". I prefer "outflow"
http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/s...g-to-like-this

[Mara Pacers]

Thank you Mahisha.

I love the image of all.. "their effluents ended"

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

... every time I hear the word tangle, I remember the Jata Sutta...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....006.than.html

A tangle within,
a tangle without,
people are entangled in a tangle.
Gotama, I ask you this:
who can untangle this tangle?

[The Buddha:]
A man established in virtue,
discerning, developing discernment & mind,
a monk ardent, astute:
he can untangle this tangle.

Those whose passion, aversion,
& ignorance have faded away,
arahants, their effluents ended:
for them the tangle's untangled.

Where name-&-form,
along with perception of impingement & form,
totally stop without trace:
that's where the tangle is cut.

[Ronald Gregor-Scott]

I feel that Americans are making unskillful decisions when it comes to gun prevalence. It's been more of a black/white arguments. But what do you expect from the country with the largest military. I think what America really needs is for the government to actually resume funding for gun research. If the gun owners are so sure that this is the safest method for protecting oneself and their family then they shouldn't be afraid of the research to support it. Based on what I know so far, the Buddha didn't have a couple of swordsmen and archers with him just in case they were attacked.