Buddhism and Guns

[Amy Lynn]

Hi all,

I'm a fairly recent, new adherent to Buddhism, and I'm in America. Unfortunately as of late, there's been a lot of gun violence here. I'm sure you all have seen and/or heard of it on the news, but in the state I am in (Florida) on Sunday, there was the biggest mass shooting in US history at a gay club (about 2 hour's drive from me.) However, it's been happening fairly frequently everywhere in the country. I don't know how I feel other than sadness, and that it might be time for better gun regulations like other countries (Australia, Japan, Europe, etc.) My family is very pro-gun, own several, and many of my friends (real and on Facebook) are commenting very negatively about this whole situation; how the person who did it is not even a human being, how if more people had guns and this wouldn't happen, and still believe guns should be legal & pretty much 100% available to everyone. I disagree with all of these things, very much so, but would never say so outright unless asked, or treat them any differently because of it.

What is the Middle Way regarding this? Is there even one? What is your opinion and what country are you from? I know there is the First Precept of non-harm of course, but what about people owning small guns for self-defense? (For the record, I do not own one.) Then there's attachment to views, good or bad. So confusing...

I feel honestly that this topic is dividing us as a nation. Instead of uniting us in the face of a tragedy, we're disagreeing and turning on each-other, and that makes me very sad

Much Metta,
Amy Lynn

[Mara Pacers]

Hi Amy, I feel for you being caught up in the maelstrom of emotion, discord, media frenzy etc... I have had many debates with people from within the USA about this issue. Unfortunately I think the situation has moved beyond a logical solution. There is so much manipulation of facts and emotion by the many interest groups and politics, that all make it more difficult to resolve.

I'm from Australia and went through the gun regulation process here.. Must be 20 -30 years ago.

In my view the answer to your question boils down to intention. Unless one only intends to shoot targets, then the intention of owning a gun is to do harm. if the intention is to harm/kill someone in self defense.. It is still the intention to do harm. The purpose of guns is to kill and wound. There are many ways to defend oneself without this. This is my logical response.

In complex and emotionally fraught issues such as this one, I find the best approach is to reduce it, to distill it down to the simplest and most basic level. Otherwise ones mind just keeps racing around all the myriad added on issues and it is impossible to think about in stillness. Reductive analysis.
You can also try to switch off the thinking altogether and listen to what your heart or your inner knowledge tells you.
My heart response is that the world would be better without guns. It is a valid position in itself... No need to reject it because it might seem impossible to achieve.

Wishing you peace and equanimity
Mara

[Sarah Myers]

Hi, Amy!

I'm American as well, so I understand the really deep-seeded in-fighting among people about not only gun control, but fundamentalist religious beliefs and the LGBT community. This hit me hard - I'm part of the LGBT community myself.

In terms of guns for self-defense, I think that's usually not the best idea; it's letting fear rule you for one, and it's also got its own problems (children accidentally shooting others, someone else getting the gun, etc). The only plausible reason to own a gun is to harm something else (e.g., home invaders, hunting). I spent time as a child in a household that was very pro-gun and pro-hunting. They kept their guns locked up unless they were hunting for food (which they would do once or twice a year).

I don't understand why someone would need to own an assault rifle, period: they're awful for hunting and were designed to kill lots of people.

I think that here in the States there is an attachment to the view that one person's freedoms outrank the safety of the many. It reminds me of all of the "toilet laws" going around. No trans person has ever attacked anyone in a bathroom; in fact, trans people of color have an absurdly high likelihood to be attacked. But the comfort of people who are against trans people is more important than trans people's safety.

I've been trying to get away from the fear that comes with so many people in my community being murdered. But this was the eight mass shooting in this country this week, and something has to give in terms of laws. I always ask people who own guns: what would change if you didn't own one?

There has to be a middle way on this that can be guided by love and compassion. Unfortunately this issue is centuries old, and involves things like toxic masculinity, lobby money, and a lot of people thinking that LGBT rights are "done" or "good enough". It's not just one thing our country has to sort through, it's a great big tangle.

But thank you for bringing this up. It means that there's more people out there who want to stop this.

[Jerrod Lopes]

I am from America, have owned guns, have carried guns at work for my job in the past, am part of an American military organization, and used to be a Buddhist. Now I just follow the Buddha and have no guns, save one that belongs to my girlfriend. My views are as follows: guns and shootings are not new and have been sensationalized in a massive way of late. Turn off the TV and throw away the newspaper if you desire peace. Unless you plan on being enlightened in this lifetime, don't submit yourself to harm by not defending yourself. Your family and loved ones depend on you being around. This world, much as we would like it to be, is not perfect and never will be. There is no utopia and never will be. This is samsara. To quote the band Green Day's lyric "everything isn't meant to be okay". This is an enormous part of the path the Buddha laid out. Nibbana is not making the world perfect, but making yourself without kamma, blameless. Attachment to views and identities such as; American, pacifist, LGBT, straight, violent, smart, stupid....these are all samsara. Letting go of identities is dhamma. I don't think we should get caught up in what our country should or shouldn't do. We have enough ahead of us to know what we individuals should or shouldn't do. How can we know what others should do if we don't know what to do for ourselves? To make merit, doing good in deeds and thoughts is far more powerful than any restrictive laws we could pass that only further a delusion of security and safety. Instead of teying to get rid of all the guns and the violence, rid yourself of the fear of them and the attachments to the root views and attachments that cause the fear. Just my thoughts.

[Dheerayupa Sukonthapanthu]

Nibbana is not making the world perfect, but making yourself without kamma, blameless. Attachment to views and identities such as; American, pacifist, LGBT, straight, violent, smart, stupid....these are all samsara. Letting go of identities is dhamma...

How can we know what others should do if we don't know what to do for ourselves? To make merit, doing good in deeds and thoughts is far more powerful than any restrictive laws we could pass that only further a delusion of security and safety. Instead of trying to get rid of all the guns and the violence, rid yourself of the fear of them and the attachments to the root views and attachments that cause the fear.

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

[Ronald Gregor-Scott]

I feel that Americans are making unskillful decisions when it comes to gun prevalence. It's been more of a black/white arguments. But what do you expect from the country with the largest military. I think what America really needs is for the government to actually resume funding for gun research. If the gun owners are so sure that this is the safest method for protecting oneself and their family then they shouldn't be afraid of the research to support it. Based on what I know so far, the Buddha didn't have a couple of swordsmen and archers with him just in case they were attacked.

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

... every time I hear the word tangle, I remember the Jata Sutta...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....006.than.html

A tangle within,
a tangle without,
people are entangled in a tangle.
Gotama, I ask you this:
who can untangle this tangle?

[The Buddha:]
A man established in virtue,
discerning, developing discernment & mind,
a monk ardent, astute:
he can untangle this tangle.

Those whose passion, aversion,
& ignorance have faded away,
arahants, their effluents ended:
for them the tangle's untangled.

Where name-&-form,
along with perception of impingement & form,
totally stop without trace:
that's where the tangle is cut.

[Mara Pacers]

Thank you Mahisha.

I love the image of all.. "their effluents ended"

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

you are welcome Mara...
The pali version is
https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn7.6

I think (I could be wrong), effluents here is translation of the word "āsavā",
and Franz Li on another thread wrote:
Ajahn Brahm talked about the Pali word "asava" as "outflow" - the tendency of consciousness to seek out sensory stimulation and explore the world outside.
Interestingly, other translators like Bhikkhu Bodhi used the word "influx". I prefer "outflow"
http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/s...g-to-like-this

[Mara Pacers]

I like the thought of outflow as well. And in the case of effluents it is outflow of unwholesome substances that could be understood as
"Arahants, their effluents ended:" ie Arahants no longer exuding or leaking unwholesome stuff (thoughts actions feelings) because these things are no longer present or have been dissolved or dispersed from their 'being'.
The momentum here is the outflow or expulsion of effluent by the Arahants rather active inflow from relative world stimulants.

What an incredible state to contemplate! I'm still leaking a considerable amount of effluent into my surroundings it is a lovely image or aim to continuously reduce ones effluent
Many thanks

With Metta

Mara

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

wow, now, that's beautiful Mara!
Thank you

I love this sutta a lot... now, have a different color / dimension - to contemplate, and use as a source of inspiration

With Metta,

Mahisha

[Amy Lynn]

Friends in Dhamma,

Thank you all so very much for responding to my post! It's been about a week, and I am just so sorry I haven't had the chance to address each and every one of your well-thought out, wonderful responses. However, I have read them, and the different perspectives have given me a lot to think about. I love this forum! It has cooled down here quite a bit and healing has begun, so I believe that is definitely a positive. I have offered my support to the LGBT community in attending events/giving donations, and I have to say, the outpouring of support has just been amazing. More people (diverse, different religions) coming together than before, now that the shock has worn off. I believe we can only move forward from here regardless of personal opinions, and this just showed me that feelings and emotions in the moment are (more often than not) temporary.

Metta
Amy Lynn

[James Taeza]

This world, much as we would like it to be, is not perfect and never will be. There is no utopia and never will be. This is samsara. To quote the band Green Day's lyric "everything isn't meant to be okay". This is an enormous part of the path the Buddha laid out. Nibbana is not making the world perfect, but making yourself without kamma, blameless. Attachment to views and identities such as; American, pacifist, LGBT, straight, violent, smart, stupid....these are all samsara. Letting go of identities is dhamma. I don't think we should get caught up in what our country should or shouldn't do. We have enough ahead of us to know what we individuals should or shouldn't do. How can we know what others should do if we don't know what to do for ourselves? To make merit, doing good in deeds and thoughts is far more powerful than any restrictive laws we could pass that only further a delusion of security and safety. Instead of teying to get rid of all the guns and the violence, rid yourself of the fear of them and the attachments to the root views and attachments that cause the fear. Just my thoughts.

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

in mettā,
russ

[Mara Pacers]

Dear Mahisha, I have just found this guided meditation by Ajahn Brahm, where he talks about the outflowings of the mind. The meaning is very different from what I was imagining the 'effluent' might be. It can be found in the 1hour downloads and is a guided meditation by Ajahn Brahm.
Apologies for the wrong steering. I do sometimes get carried away by my love of language, in this case the precise meaning, as originally intended, is too important.

With Metta

Mara

[Mahisha Warusavitharana]

Dear Mara, thank you for that - I believe I found it!
http://media.bswa.org/meditation/Bra...2011_03_05.mp3

With Metta and gratitude,
Mahisha