No questions, no answers?

[Ed Rock]

Dear Ajahn Brahmali,

In the middle of last night I began meditating in my kuti but the questions came one after the other and soon I had eight sticky notes filled front and back – mind, soul, nirodha samapatti, perception and discernment within jhana, monk sleep, bhavanga, ghosts, in between states, instant rebirth, delayed rebirth, review of jhanic states – and it seemed as if the mind would never stop.

Then suddenly it did. It suddenly realized that there are no fundamental answers, and it simply stopped. It became empty, a surrender of sorts accompanied by on and off weeping, more deeply experienced than in the past, followed by periods of intense stillness, almost a sense of awe that far exceeded the answers and knowledge that had receded into nothingness. Nothing mattered. There was no sense of exuberance nor depression, just nothing.

It’s as if the mind plays games for its own amusement and perhaps there are no ultimate answers to the deepest questions. When the mind touches that which it can’t possibly know, the questions seem to fade into irrelevance. But when the mind is not touching “that,” the questions become so important again.

The questions will be eventually asked, but could you please address this experience and perhaps advise me as to the best mode of practice for now? Thank you.

Metta, anagarika eddie.

[Ajahn Brahmali]

Dear Anagarika Eddie,

It suddenly realized that there are no fundamental answers ...

I suppose you mean that there are no fundamental answers in thinking alone. And, yes, realizing that can certainly make the thinking stop. Well done!

perhaps there are no ultimate answers to the deepest questions

I think there are, but they are found in stillness. Verbalizing and thinking can be helpful, but at the same time they can only take you so far. It is helpful to understand both the benefits and limitations of thinking.

When the mind touches that which it can’t possibly know ...

I presume you mean that the deepest experiences of meditation cannot be known through thinking (?).

But when the mind is not touching “that,” the questions become so important again.

Yes, the mind tends to oscillate between seeing deeply and a more common and shallower state, at least on the earlier stages of the path. But the seeing deeply leaves an impact that you take with you, and this becomes part of what drives you onwards on the path. So keep doing what you are doing, but especially understand the causes of your success. It is by implementing the causes, while not craving for the results, that future success in meditation is built.

You seem to be doing well. Good luck!

With metta.

[Ed Rock]

Dear Ajahn Brahmali,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Metta, anagarika eddie

[James Taeza]

Venerable Ajahn Bramahli,

Aloha and Anjali! May I please tack on to Anagarika Ed's question? Today I am observing Uposatha as usual (I usually observe Uposatha on Saturdays as I can't during the work week). Also today I was able to take a nap in the afternoon resting both this body and mind. I usually watch/listen to previous retreat videos of Ajahn Brahm in YouTube recorded by Dania Pearcy and today I was watching the clip "between observer & observe". In this clip Ajahn Brahm recommended that before meditation if one is having problems meditating, one should have an agreement with the mind to just let it do what it wants - just let the mind go and let it think its happy self away.

After watching the clip I sat down for a thirty minute meditation following Ajahn Brahms guidance. For the first time, my mind actually wasn't thinking too much and if it did, it caught itself doing so and returned back to the present moment. Here and there it would drift off but would come back. For thirty minutes I was amazed because I wasn't really doing anything but observing my mind going off and returning back by itself - and it gave me a sense of happiness just by that alone. But the funny thing I observed though is that when my mind was still it seemed to drift off again when it's about to be completely peaceful. More like it's unsure of what that stillness is? Could it be because it's so used to so much thinking? As a beginner, what I had just experienced, is that normal?

Ajahn Brahm mentioned on the clip that the mind has to get accustomed to being still and with diligent practice, it will recognize that stillness as something good.

Thank you very much for your time and continued guidance. Sending you my gratefulness and appreciation. Anjali and metta.

with great respect,

Russell

[Ajahn Brahmali]

Dear Russell,

Good! That's mindfulness starting to bite.

There are many possible reasons why a thought would arise just as the mind was getting ready for a deeper state of stillness. One possibility is that you were trying to control the experience. This is just a natural response that comes from desire. Another possibility is that you got a bit excited. "Here it comes!" That too will tend to activate the mind rather than settle it further. Or perhaps there was a little bit of concern or fear. As you say, it might be that the habit of thinking is strong (as it is for most of us), and that stillness was a bit scary.

It's very normal. In fact, you are clearly doing the right thing, so just keep doing it and you will gradually learn. Just remember to be the passive observer. As you learn this more deeply, you're meditation will gradually deepen.

With metta.

[Ed Rock]

Dear Ajahn Brahmali,

About that meditation experience above where the mind simply let go of everything. It could not get interested in the breath or even the area between the eyes (where my mind’s focus in the past seemed to drift residing in emptiness or space where time disappears).

The mind just wanted to be left alone. It couldn’t concentrate on anything. If I tried to focus on the breath, for example, the mind would simply drop it as if the mind considered it an unnecessary bother.

Anything that came up, i.e. what I am now explaining or any kind of mental image was immediately dismissed. And the mind got stiller and stiller until it could see its own movement, and it didn’t like that movement! And then the body would begin sobbing again.

Mind would notice the body sobbing, similar to a disinterested scientist conducting an experiment, and become amused when the diaphragm began to hurt from the sobbing, thinking, “Isn’t that silly?”

During the experience I didn’t have to actively let go of anything, the mind let go all by itself. But as a practice now, would I volitionally let go of everything that comes to mind with active will? Would this letting go eventually lead to jhana?

Was this mind watching mind samatha or vippassana? How would I refine this or extend it without having to do what brought this on – coming up with innumerable questions?

Thank you.

Metta, anagarika eddie.

[James Taeza]

Venerable Ajahn Brahmali,

I send you my thanks for your continued guidance and patience. Anjali and metta.

with great respect,
Russell

[Ajahn Brahmali]

Dear Eddie,

During the experience I didn’t have to actively let go of anything, the mind let go all by itself. But as a practice now, would I volitionally let go of everything that comes to mind with active will?

This is an important point. Letting go cannot happen through an act of will. Letting go is a result of wisdom or insight. People often ask how they should let go. The answer is that you don't do it, but that is happens by itself when your mind is ready. Still, we can speak of the condition that lead to letting go. What are these? The first condition is seeing the suffering in what you are holding on to. If you reflect on the experience you have described here, I would suggest that prior to your mind letting go (and while it was letting go) you had some sort of insight that made it very clear to you that thinking (all your questions) were dukkha. It is this understanding of dukkha on a profound level that leads to letting go, whether it is letting go of thinking, the body, the senses, or whatever. So reflecting on suffering is an important aspect of the path, and in the long run it will lead to deeper and deeper experiences of letting go.

The second thing that leads to letting go is finding happiness elsewhere. We hold on to things because we haven't got an alternative and superior form of happiness. By finding happiness in virtue and generosity, by finding it is samatha and vipassanā, it is easier to let go of our worldly attachments. Gradually you climb the spiritual ladder, and letting go simply happens as a consequence. But it happens in its own time when the conditions are ripe, not when you want it to.

Would this letting go eventually lead to jhana?

You are going in the right direction. Eventually you will have to get back to the breath, because you will also have to focus the mind. But don't force the mind if it doesn't want to. The experience you were having seems to have been more of a vipassanā sort. When this happens just enjoy and learn from the experience. When the experience stops, there will be a time when it is natural to return to the breath. You may find that the breath meditation is much easier then.

Was this mind watching mind samatha or vippassana?

It seems to me that you had an insight and that the insight then lead to letting go and therefore calm. What you saw was the calming effect (samatha) of seeing clearly (vipassanā).

How would I refine this or extend it without having to do what brought this on – coming up with innumerable questions?

See my response above.

With metta.

[Ed Rock]

Dear Ajahn Brahmali,

It is this understanding of dukkha on a profound level that leads to letting go, whether it is letting go of thinking, the body, the senses, or whatever. So reflecting on suffering is an important aspect of the path, and in the long run it will lead to deeper and deeper experiences of letting go.

You really understand Ajahn. Sadhu! When I have been sitting recently, and even during the day, the mind seems to see the absolute futility in everything (suffering?) and becomes very still very quickly.

You are going in the right direction. Eventually you will have to get back to the breath, because you will also have to focus the mind.

During meditation the mind alternates between periods of stillness and periods of some kind of discernment laced with emotion as if I am losing something. The stillness for some reason does not go back to the breath but remains in a state of awareness without object, as if it has somehow surrendered but is very much still acutely aware. At times the mind will hold itself on the breath just to experiment, but loses interest and prefers to just watch itself. It's very still, but a bit strange.

For example, as it watched, it discerned thoughts beginning as images. It saw these thought images arise, firing at random, then connecting up with associated thoughts and memories (kind of like facebook where you start with one friend and before you know it, you have 1,000 associated friends and then the thoughts continued on into a projection or drama.

The mental factors do not seem like nama, but rather seem like a result of rupa (brain) – mechanical and predictable in all ways – like neurons firing because of habitual reinforcement.

During the day when I go about the activities of the meditation center, occasionally I feel a little disoriented and detached in that I seem to be a robot with a programmed computer brain and nothing else. I see other people that way too, all sort of caught up in predictable fantasies. (Suffering?) Sometimes the mind goes into stillness in the middle of this activity.

Many years ago I used to get “Peace attacks” out of the blue, but this is different, more . . . serious. It is really strange, very disconcerting and seemingly removed from what previously had been the mind’s eternalistic rebirth view. Now the mind seems nihilistic in many ways in that the mind cannot see anything beyond this apparent mechanical, cause and effect zombie-like mundaneness called life. Sort of like falling into a hole.(Suffering?)

It seems to me that you had an insight and that the insight then led to letting go and therefore calm. What you saw was the calming effect (samatha) of seeing clearly (vipassanā).

Again you are spot on, Ajahn. In meditation the mind can seem to see the creation of a watcher. The watcher seems to be nothing more than merely a memory of the last thought-image of myself superimposed on the next thought-image – two separate thought-images occurring so fast that the illusion is of one thought-image watching the other. All the mind can see is this progression of one thought following another in endless cause and effect, cause and effect, and nothing else. It cannot see anything existing beyond that other than the illusion it forms (Suffering?).

The fact that mind is watching and recording all of this is also revealed as the same illusion as stated above. There seems to be no watcher, no reality, NO MIND, with thought images replacing actual reality. It seems that I live my complete life in nothing but images. This “no watcher” thing (Suffering?) then leads to increasing calm without effort where the imaging almost stops. But even here there are very subtle images difficult to detect until the mind slows way down. Actually only when time disappears, along with consciousness (monk sleep? Bhavanga?) does all the very subtle imaging seem to stop.

I can’t help but wonder whether Ajahn Chah’s “The one who knows,” is merely sanya? Is mind other than just this, some kind of ineffable psychic spirit beyond the functions of the brain and neural activity? Beyond the khandas?

Thank you so very much Ajahn. You are helping a lot - unerringly, precisely, and faithfully - to deepen my practice

Metta, anagarika eddie.

[Ajahn Brahmali]

Dear Anag. Eddie,

... the mind seems to see the absolute futility in everything (suffering?) ...

Yes, exactly, that's part of dukkha.

Sort of like falling into a hole.(Suffering?)

This is all well and good as long as your mind is balanced. If you find yourself getting slightly emotionally disturbed, confused or deluded, that's a sign you are over-doing it. It may then be good to balance these experiences with metta and compassion. The purer the mind, the more ready it is for deep insight, including insight into suffering.

Actually only when time disappears, along with consciousness (monk sleep? Bhavanga?) does all the very subtle imaging seem to stop.

The imagery can stop without consciousness "disappearing". The way you describe the process, it seems to me that the images are the remains of the ego. As the images become more subtle, you are gradually weakening the ego. "Consciousness disappearing" could mean one of two things: (1) Your mind has entered a dull state, or (2) your perception has reached such a level of subtlety that it seems as if you are aware of nothing. This is the sort of thing that can happen with breath meditation when the breath becomes so subtle it disappears from awareness. When that happens you just have to wait until either the breath reappears in awareness or a nimitta arises. If you have difficulties going beyond this point, the reason could be a lack of joy in the mind. Joy is a very important part of meditation at this point; without it you will be blocked from going deeper. Again, mettā may prove very beneficial.

I can’t help but wonder whether Ajahn Chah’s “The one who knows,” is merely sanya?

My understanding is that "the one who knows" simply refers to the equanimous mind watching phenomena arise and pass away. It's a strong state of mindfulness.

Is mind other than just this, some kind of ineffable psychic spirit beyond the functions of the brain and neural activity? Beyond the khandas?

There is no mind beyond the five khandhas. Indeed, mind without consciousness is an oxymoron.

With metta.

[Ed Rock]

Dear Ajahn Brahmali,

This is the sort of thing (aware of nothing) that can happen with breath meditation when the breath becomes so subtle it disappears from awareness. When that happens you just have to wait until either the breath reappears in awareness or a nimitta arises.

This right here, Ajahn, is the sticking point in my practice: Watching the breath vs stillness within a blank screen.

What happens is this: The mind is very awake and active watching the breath for a short time and then the mind somehow “converges?” to a spot close to the bridge of the nose looking at the back of the eyelids which appears as a black, sometimes grey blank screen. This is extremely still with thought reduced to “Wow! This is really still!” The breath can still be noticed in the background if the mind looks for it, but it prefers not to because looking for the breath seems to be an interruption of the stillness.

This “convergence” is a movement of mind as it seems to suddenly and involuntarily get sucked up into an area around the bridge of the nose ( I can almost imagine hearing a “boing!”). After that, in the absolute stillness, sometimes minor nimitta will flash, visions of fields of colored flowers, waves of purple, etc., or short phrases will be heard, an example of one is; "The only difference between life and death is the breath", sometimes followed by some minor piti; hairs raising, and all the time the mind is planted in this blank screen and doesn’t want to ever move. Then the face will usually begin to smile and the smile widens until it’s too much and the body begins weeping, but not in sadness. Then it's back and forth into the stillness. This entire process seems to take only a few minutes, but actually the clock usually says that an hour or two has gone by. But there is never any bright white light (Real nimitta).

I think the mind will have to work with this for awhile and really stay pinned to the breath and not allow it to converge to see if that is the way to a real nimitta, even though the mind seems to instinctively want to get away from the breath which seems to be a disruption of the stillness. The body gets emotional now just thinking about that stillness!

If only the blank screen was bright, white light! That would make life so much easier

I’m going to keep working on this because it seems very important, so much so that I believe if the mind goes the wrong way here, it may get stuck for a long, long time! I’ll let you know what happens and follow up with some questions.

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

Much metta, anagarika eddie

[Erin Wells]

Dear Ajahn
If I may join in please, I had two questions

one: you wrote in the early part of the thread

"Verbalizing and thinking can be helpful, but at the same time they can only take you so far. It is helpful to understand both the benefits and limitations of thinking."

In your view, what are the benefits and limitation of thinking? How do you use thinking without it taking over and using you? My mind still sometimes starts spinning dramas which when they get enough momentum suck me in, it's never beneficial. I can see what you mean by dukka and delusion. But I can't seem to stop the process once it gets started.

two: I am just a layperson, but I've been trying to develop spiritually for many years (in between working, keeping house, and taking care family and all the usual stuff). In the beginning I thought theres no way I'm ever going to make progress as monastic or yoga teacher who goes on retreat etc.

But I have been at it a little practice a day for a long time and have a much better practice than when I started. Unless something really upsetting has happened I can still my mind in meditation, not in a forceful way, it's more like I can turn off the gravity that makes the thought objects stay on my mind, and then they float away into space and disappear. They come back as soon as I have to stop meditating and I have to fix breakfast, drop off kids, etc. but in everyday life I can see a difference in my state of mind and also have ditched considerable baggage that I used to carry around.

For a long while although without thinking there was still kind of a negative tone in the mind, but then (based on the great things I've learned at your website) I added metta (try to do this before sitting and keep it going all day but it's easy to get caught up in other things and forget) But what I was able to do worked wonderfully, I found out I can generate nice joy and positive energy to go with the stillness most days.

Practice now is usually a happy place I look forward to visiting. but I was interested in your posts about the "spiritual ladder". Would you have any advice for a next step?

[Ajahn Brahmali]

Dear Anagarika Eddie,

Keep up the good work! I wish you all success.

With metta.

[Ajahn Brahmali]

Dear Erin,

In your view, what are the benefits and limitation of thinking?

Thinking is useful to get us headed in the right direction. You read the suttas and listen to talks, and then you reflect for yourself. This is part of the process of acquiring right view, and without some sort of right view there is no practice. As your practice deepens, your reflections become more powerful and the suttas more meaningful. In this way reflection and stillness support each other. However, deep meditation - the sort of meditation that is pregnant with deep insight - goes beyond thought. It is the preverbal mind, the truly still mind, that is the most powerful.

But I can't seem to stop the process once it gets started.

Don't try too hard to stop the process, because using will-power can reinforce the existing tendency. Instead, just "stand back" and watch "the show". If you can really do this, the thinking will tend to slow and eventually stop. Over time your practice will make the "spinning of dramas" more and more rare.

Would you have any advice for a next step?

More of the same! What you are doing seems to work; and as they say, never change a winning team. You will find that as you keep going the mind will become more and more purified and your meditation will deepen as a consequence.

You may wish to do a meditation retreat at some point to test yourself a bit more. Sometimes such retreats will give you invaluable experience.

Wishing you swift and happy progress!

With metta.